Guest Post Q&A with Adam Pennington
Author of 'Henry VIII and the Plantagenet Poles: The Rise and Fall of a Dynasty'
Today I’m delighted to welcome Adam Pennington! Adam is a historian, author, podcaster, and tour guide. Adam’s first book Henry VIII and the Plantagenet Poles: The Rise and Fall of a Dynasty was released in 2024, so I took this opportunity to ask him about that book, and the other things he’s working on. Thanks, Adam, for agreeing to answer my questions!
Welcome to the blog, Adam! Your first book was on the Plantagenet Poles so what drew you to write about this subject?
There were a couple of big reasons why this particular subject appealed to me. Firstly, the more I got to learn how tenuous the Tudor claim to the throne was, the more I wanted to get to know those who possessed superior claims. That also sent me down a rabbit hole into the world of the Plantagenets, who I freely admit to being just as fascinated by as I do the Tudors. The Pole family were of course Plantagenets, and so they had a very strong claim, as did the Courtenay’s, who feature heavily in the book as well as the Pole’s. The second thing is that Margaret Pole’s infamous execution was part of something much bigger – The Exeter Conspiracy. This was a window in which Henry VIII did not turn on his wives, his ministers or the church, he turned on his own extended family. It would result in 13 arrests, 8 executions and a young boy of royal blood, Henry Pole the Younger, who vanished inside the Tower of London, the boy I refer to as the “third missing prince in the Tower”. I wanted to tell that story. To let people know that there was a much larger thing going on and that Margaret’s execution was actually the conclusion of a shocking drama that played out over a three-year period.
Was there one particular member of the Pole family that you particularly enjoyed researching or writing about?
There wasn’t one that especially stood out from an enjoyment perspective, but I definitely felt as though I got a good grip on the different personalities of Margaret’s oldest and youngest sons, Henry and Geoffrey. The two brothers were very different characters, Henry much more guarded and sensible, while Geoffrey was often brash and foolish. It was also really lovely when it dawned on me that the quietest member of the family, Ursula Pole, was the one who left behind the most prominent legacy, for her granddaughter is buried in Westminster Abbey, with a beautiful plaque commemorating her ancestry. None of Margaret Pole’s sons and their descendants were able to do that.
Why do you think Henry VIII took so long to act against the Poles as they had been there throughout most of his reign before they were finally imprisoned and executed (the members he could get his hands on anyway!)?
Well, the first and most important thing to say is that Henry VIII greatly favoured the Pole family, just as he favoured the other “White Rose” houses – the Courtenay’s, the Lisle’s, the Neville’s etc. We must remember that unlike Henry VII who was all Lancaster, Henry VIII was half York and moreover was said to greatly resemble the York side. He was tall, broad and handsome, very much his maternal grandfather, Edward IV, born again. To this end, at the start of the reign he returned much of the wealth and titles from these families that had been taken away by his father. He gave Margaret Pole a singular honour when he made her Countess of Salisbury in her own right, this was extremely unusual. It made her the equal of her male counterparts. When assessing the wealth of the ten most powerful nobles in England at the time, Margaret came in fifth, and suffice to say, she was the sole female on the list. What eventually sours the relationship is very complex but ultimately comes down to the way her third son, Reginald Pole, greatly rebelled against Henry VIII, and the repercussions this had on his family back in England. Running alongside this, Cromwell had spies who gleaned some information which made it seem as though Henry Pole, Geoffrey Pole and then Margaret by extension were plotting to overthrow the king, alongside the Courtenay’s, and that Henry Courtenay, Marquess of Exeter would become king. That’s why it’s known as the “Exeter Conspiracy”. Suffice to say, I don’t believe there was a genuine conspiracy. What I think happened is that a group of the old nobility, conservative in their religion, simply no longer recognised the country they had helped build. They began moaning and airing their grievances. Sadly, these grievances, particularly from the Pole brothers, did tip over into treason, if we accept the evidence put forward, because it does contravene the updated 1534 treasons act.
What do you think about Reginald Pole’s relationships with Henry VIII and Mary I and how they developed over time?
Well initially Henry greatly endowed Reginald. He paid for his education in Padua and Rome. He saw him as a perfect Renaissance scholar who could represent England in Italy. That all changed when Reginald released what is officially considered a letter but is actually a small book called De Unitate. In it, Reginald absolutely tears Henry apart, likening him to Roman dictators like Nero and Caligula, he accuses the king of destroying the best men in the kingdom, meaning Fisher and More. Naturally this did not go down well with the king and really, it’s my belief that this was what certainly caused his mother’s execution, because the evidence against Margaret just wasn’t there, this was Henry killing her out of spite. As far as Mary goes, Reginald, just like the rest of the Pole family, was utterly devoted to her. One of the first things Mary did upon ascending the throne was to recall Reginald to England, which he did, arriving in London at the head of 2,000 armed men, arriving back like a returning hero. She named him her Archbishop of Canterbury and the two became very close. I actually suggest in the book that he was the one man who never let her down. Touchingly the died on the very same day, Reginald passed away eight hours after Mary.
I wrote about Margaret Pole in my book on Tudor Executions, but do you think that Henry VIII had any real evidence against her, and do you think she was guilty of treason?
No, I do not believe she was guilty nor was there any hard evidence for Henry to go on. The thing that sealed Margaret’s fate was the discovery of a tunic which supposedly showed the intertwined Pansy, the sigil of the Poles, with the Tudor rose, and the inference was that this was all part of a long-term plan to marry Reginald Pole to Princess Mary. In reality, I think this was either a simple tunic made to show the links between the two families, for they were, after all, closely related, or, and this I think is the most plausible, is that it was a fake planted by Cromwell. We know he was not above cooking up evidence – just look at the sham trial of Anne Boleyn. Margaret was questioned for months, and they simply could not find anything to pin against her, until this tunic “suddenly shows up” – fishy if you ask me!
Was there something you found out in the course of your research which really surprised you or you didn’t expect?
Yes! I wasn’t expecting to conclude that Henry Pole and Geoffrey Pole were guilty of treason, which if we accept the evidence put forward, they absolutely were, but, and it’s a big but, only based on the aforementioned update to the treasons act. Do I believe the two men actually intended to oust the king, no, I don’t. They and the other White Rose families had their chance during the Pilgrimage of Grace, and they didn’t take it, in fact they did the opposite and provided men to combat the rebels. The evidence supplied by a man called Hugh Holland, against Geoffrey Pole, and then the evidence Geoffrey Pole supplied against his brother Henry Pole, if we accept is accurate, does cross a line. For example, Geoffrey Pole had opened a covert communication channel with Reginald in Europe. In the letters carried to Reginald, Geoffrey revealed things that were state secrets. That is unquestionably treasonous, especially as Reginald was in such open rebellion against the king. On the part of Henry Pole, he said that “none rule about the king but knaves” and that Henry’s sore leg would mean “he should not live long”. The updated treasons act of 1534 made it treason to even think about the king’s death, and so if Henry Pole did say this, then that sufficiently tipped into treason, and that’s what I mean when I said they were guilty, because they were, under the strict interpretation of treason at the time.
What is your favourite and least favourite part of the writing process?
I think my favourite part is when, for whatever reason, you just get an innate sense that you’ve really understood the person/persons you’re writing about. With Margaret Pole for example, it dawned on me that the reason I believe that she was innocent and always told the truth was that she was totally unafraid to admit to things that were controversial – burning letters, being relieved that Reginald had escaped assassination, despite formally declaring him no son of hers and that she was committed solely to the king. When I made that connection, I definitely had an “oh, I think I really get this lady” moment, and that’s satisfying. The least favourite part is just the part in the process, which I am sure everyone goes through, where you think “I am just never going to get this done!!”, somehow you work through it, but there’s always that struggle at points.
You also host a Tudor podcast, ‘The Tudor Chest’ – do you have a favourite episode that you’ve recorded so far?
The episodes where I also learn a lot of new things are always great. I think one that stands out is my interview with Emily Murdoch-Perkins about her book, REGINA. In that episode we discussed loads of very little-known royal woman, dating back to the 8th century, it was just so fascinating, and Emily also happens to be naturally really funny and engaging, so it was a perfect combination!
You’re a busy man as you are also a co-director of Simply Tudor Tours! Do you have a favourite place that you’ve visited on one of your tours?
I am indeed. It’s so fun. My career for a really long time was in corporate media events, so still having events being part of my job, now through the prism of history, is brilliant. I’d say what makes these tours so fun is that they’ve given me, and thus our customers the ability to get behind the scenes! That’s a big part of what we offer. For example, during last September’s tour, The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn, we got unparalleled access at Hampton Court Palace and the Tower of London. I was able to go into the “birth and death” room at Hampton Court – the room where Jane Seymour gave birth to Edward VI and then died in twelve days later. It’s closed off to the public, but we were given access. At the Tower of London, we went into the prison cells of Thomas More and John Fisher. Those little touches are really special. Any tour with Anne Boleyn as a key focus will naturally include Hever Castle, which is undoubtedly my favourite part. A big reason why is that we stay on site for two nights, we get to host a banquet in the great hall, it’s just so soooo special to have the place to ourselves, especially when Anne Boleyn is my absolute historical heroine.
What are you currently working on?
I am now working on my second book. It’s not been announced yet as my agent and I are in the proposal stage, but what I can tell you is that royal consorts, and the office of the consort, is the central theme. More to be revealed in due course!
Author Bio
Adam Pennington is a Plantagenet and Tudor historian, podcaster and author based in London. Henry VIII and the Plantagenet Poles: The Rise and Fall of a Dynasty is his first published work. Born and raised on the London and Surrey borders, his childhood home practically overlooked Nonsuch Park, the location of the sadly lost Tudor Palace of the same name. With so much Tudor history on his doorstep, Adam developed a passion for the Tudor dynasty from a young age. Adam runs the popular The Tudor Chest blog and social accounts, and is co-director of Simply Tudor Tours, a historic tour company.
Social Media
X/Twitter as @thetudorchest.
Instagram as @thetudorchest.
His podcast ‘The Tudor Chest’.
Adam’s Books:
A great post and ANOTHER book I need for my Tudor Library. Squeeee!